Author Topic: Help With Chinese PID  (Read 10835 times)

Sjp8175

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Help With Chinese PID
« on: February 10, 2017, 08:49:24 AM »
Hi all! This is my first post and I've been reading from the shadows for a while but I'm trying to step up my game!
I'm a college student and picked up a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe and restored it. I'm at the point where I want a project and want to try and make better espresso, it does a good job already and finally got my grinder dialed in Using fresh beans. Simply for something to do as a learning project, I got a PID and a SSR with a K Type Thermocouple. The issue for me is that it's a Chinese copy of a Rex-C100. It was cheap and I figured it'd be better than no PID.
That being said, the wiring diagram is sort of questionable as what input goes to what and all of the instructions are in Chinese.
Also, the K Type thermocouple installation is killing me. I'm between drilling and tapping the boiler or just modifying it for external use.
Lastly, I'm wondering if the DeLuxe wiring diagram is similar or the same as the coffee diagram, just want to make sure before starting! I haven't found a good article on using the knock off PIDs or a Coffee Deluxe but if someone else knows of one that'd be very appreciated.
Thank you!

Offline jerryseabridge

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2017, 09:50:22 AM »
Hi - we'll get you sorted!

First off, can you post a link to the manual for your PID? If you cant find a link can you scan it and attach a jpeg of it here? Also, there is usually a sticky on the side of the PID which shows which terminals to use, do you have such a sticker on yours? Also, you did make sure you have one that will drive an SSR, not the one with the internal relay?

Regarding the K thermocouple - again a photo would help but I guessing it's the one with the thread and a hex shaped nut thing at the end? If so, in my view the easiest thing to do is to remove this outer cover (usually come off with a bit of twisting/turning using pliers), inside you'll find a smaller "blob" which is the actual TC - cover it in thermal paste, loosen the current brew tstat enough to get the "blob" between it and the boiler, then hand tighten the tstat to hold it in place - it's a bit heath robinson but works well and requires no drilling/tapping so you can take it out if you want to revert. Alternatively, if you are the adventurous type, get the correct drill and tap for the TC thread (IIRC they usually have an imperial, not metric, thread), since the boiler is aluminium it's easy to drill and tap... (one thing, I've never personally worked on your model, my underlying assumption is that it has the same aluminium boiler present in the Classics?)

Jerry

Sjp8175

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2017, 12:34:41 PM »
Jerry,
Thanks for the reply! Attached is the pin out and the manual. The post claimed the PID supported a solid state relay and I came with one. I got a better idea of the wiring by pulling it apart this afternoon and tracing wires back to their origins. I'm not sure if the Coffee Deluxe is different enough from the coffee that the installation would be different but I guess we're on track to sorting it out a bit better! Thank you!

Sjp8175

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2017, 12:36:28 PM »
Hit the max attachment number. Here are the rest. Thanks!

Offline jerryseabridge

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2017, 04:18:38 PM »
So it looks like you have model C100FK06-V*EN.

See the English manual at: https://www.rkcinst.co.jp/english/pdf_manual/imnzc17e3.pdf

so it's the right kind of PID ("F"), K-type TC 0-1200C, Voltage pulse ("V"). Should work just fine. The sticker on the side of the PID shows you how to wire up - AC power into pins 1 and 2, SSR DC connectors into pins 4 and 5, the TC to pins 9 and 10 (the only two pins on the other side). Although the manual talks about alarm connectors, there are no pins at the back for you to use (though you can solder wires inside the PID if you want to do that - I posted a how-to on this a while back on this forum).

So - wire up AC input power to pins 1/2, then connect the DC side of the SSR to pins 4/5 and connect up the AC side of the SSR to the wires that run to the brew tstat and finally wire the TC to pins 9/10 and install the other end of the TC to the side of the boiler. You'll then be good to go.

If you've not done this before I advise you to wire up the PID and test it before installing and setting brew temp. Cant beat a bit of pre-install testing to familiarise yourself! As ever, you're using mains voltage here so be really careful, anything you do is as your own risk. Oh, and don't forget to attach all the DC connections to the correct +/- connectors as indicated.

Re the TC - yes that's the one, the threaded end bit will come off with a bit of manipulation or you can tap out the boiler wall and screw in.

Make sense?

Jerry

Dadagobean

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2017, 04:41:30 PM »
I received that exact kit today.  I wondered how I could get the TC to work without tapping the boiler.  Thanks!

Ditto for the link to the English manual.

Dadagobean

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2017, 05:11:13 PM »

 Re the TC - yes that's the one, the threaded end bit will come off with a bit of manipulation


Pliers weren't doing it so I used a razor saw to carefully cut the sleeve.



That bead is tiny!..or did I leave something inside the piece I cut off?

Offline D4F

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2017, 05:28:13 PM »
Very basically the thermocouple is 2 wires of dissimilar metals fused together into a bead.  The voltage given off by the dissimilarity varies with temperature.  So, yes you should have it all with the bead and insulation.  Very small wire gauge so small bead. 

Sjp8175

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2017, 05:40:29 PM »
You guys rock!! I just went to the maker space on campus and grabbed some insulated 8 gauge wire (I thought it would be hefty enough) and added some ends to the wires.  I think I'm pretty good to go as far as the installation, the only remaining question I have is if there is a particular way that I should connect the actual PID module to the various connectors inside of the machine? I checked out your steam valve alarm and it looks pretty interesting and I might give it a shot! Last question (I hope) as far as the thermostat goes, I thought that the thermostat is #55 in the parts diagram but I wanted to be sure before it wasn't working.  Thank you so much for your help and hopefully I'll be able to post a completed photo on this thread tomorrow.  Thanks!

Offline jerryseabridge

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 05:42:58 PM »
#54 is the brew tstat - you want to attach two wires to the pins on the AC side of the SSR and attach these two wires to those that are currently attached to #54 - as it's AC it doesn't matter which way round you attach them.

Jerry

Sjp8175

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 05:52:26 PM »
OK this is starting to make some sense now! I guess with the physical attachment of the wires on the AC side of the relay I'm wondering if you'd recommend a connector of some sort or if soldering the wires to the pins would be the way to go.  Also, I'm not as familiar with electronics as you are but on the AC input to the PID does polarity matter there? There's no +/- on pins 1 and 2 on the diagram on my PID so I was curious as to how to wire that too.  Thank you!

Offline D4F

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2017, 06:37:38 PM »
Look at the connectors in the machine.  Pull/push and screw-on wire connectors.  On the AC side of the SSR, I used high temperature silicone wiring since inside the machine, but the gauge cam match house wiring, so 14 awg in US.  8 awg is fine size/load wise, but may be bulky and more difficult to work with.  The silicone wire is also highly flexible.

AC input to the PID controller is Alternating and does not matter.  When polarity matters, it should be clearly labeled such as output to the SSR from the controller and input at the SSR.

Offline jerryseabridge

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 10:18:46 AM »
Just to add to D4F's comments, when I first did a PID implementation I used electrical spades to connect the outputs from the AC side of the SSR into the plugs originally attached to the brew tstat - mainly because that's how all the guides I found did it - IIRC I bought a box of miscellaneous spades and connectors to try out, for example:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-76-part-spade-terminals-assortment-n93cr

using such spades makes the process reversible, you can simply remove the PID and the wiring and go back to the original set up.

On the other hand, if you're more adventurous you can simply cut off the plugs at the ends of the wires that attach to the tstat and connect the wires from the SSR direct to them (this is the way I do it these days) - ideally use some shrink wrap after you've connected them to make sure there's no exposed wiring; alternatively you can use electrical tape BUT if you do, I strongly recommend you also put a zip tie around the tape as the tape has a habit of working loose over time.

Since you say you're not overly experienced with electronics, all the more reason to set up the PID/SSR/TC outside of the machine and experiment with the set up before implementing. Yet again, whichever way you go be careful, those terminals are carrying mains voltage!

Dadagobean

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2017, 12:38:07 PM »

Sjp8175

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Re: Help With Chinese PID
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2017, 04:27:02 PM »
Thanks for the help guys! I got some spades from the maker space on campus too and I've got all of the wires ready to plug in! My only question is when you're attaching the AC to the PID do you need a piggyback connector? I got a spade kit at the local hardware store too and I have a bunch spades but I'm just wondering if there's a way to just use spades for that. Also, do you entirely disconnect the thermostat from the machine's circuit?
Thanks!

 

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